PIT Podcast: How Developer Advocacy is Changing with Joe Karlsson

Jay Miller

Aug 11, 2020 15:33 PM

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The world of Developer Advocacy has been changing and Joe Karlsson is at the front of that movement. Moving discussions from the hallway track to Twitter, Twitch, and Tik Tok, hear how this Developer 🥑 is connecting with developers.

Transcription:

00:00:16:

What's up, everybody?

00:00:18:

J.

00:00:19:

Miller here, back again with the Productivity in Tech.

00:00:22:

Podcast.

00:00:23:

This is the show where I sit down with somebody in the tech space that is killing it and doing absolutely amazing.

00:00:30:

And we try to figure out, like the nugget, the little thing, that it is like the key to their not success but the key to their day to day sustainability and like maintaining that high level of excellence.

00:00:49:

And this week is like every other week I have another great guest for you coming from Minnesota.

00:00:57:

I just defended everybody in the Midwest.

00:01:02:

Didn't know.

00:01:04:

Thes developer advocate for mongo db.

00:01:09:

You can catch him on Twitter, Tic Tac or its Which the one.

00:01:13:

The only joke.

00:01:14:

Carlson.

00:01:14:

Joe, how are you doing today?

00:01:16:

Oh, my gosh.

00:01:16:

This is the best intro I've ever gotten.

00:01:20:

I'm blushing.

00:01:21:

I'm doing so good.

00:01:23:

Thank you for asking.

00:01:23:

And I'm just so but I'm just glad to be here.

00:01:26:

It's awesome.

00:01:27:

Thanks for having me.

00:01:28:

Absolutely.

00:01:29:

We we actually met through a mutual friend of ours shot out to April.

00:01:33:

Uh, I know you're listening because you you send me a DEA or an email every time something.

00:01:39:

So Hey, what's up?

00:01:41:

But they keep doing that, by the way.

00:01:44:

But ah, April was like, Hey, both of your awesome You two should connect and then I do a podcast.

00:01:52:

I'm sure you said you have a podcast, Joe as well.

00:01:54:

We can talk about that a little bit later.

00:01:56:

I don't personally, but mongo DB does help people do it.

00:02:00:

That's cool.

00:02:01:

That's cool.

00:02:02:

Eso were like, Really?

00:02:03:

Hey, your link had 30 minutes.

00:02:05:

My link had an hour.

00:02:06:

So I was going to do everything that I could to talk to you longer.

00:02:09:

So I just content coming onto a podcast.

00:02:13:

How does it feel?

00:02:15:

Oh, great.

00:02:16:

I love women apart.

00:02:16:

Guys so fun.

00:02:17:

It's like, uh, yeah, this is so great.

00:02:20:

Yeah, I love it to you like let's trapped like great.

00:02:23:

Let's just do the chat on my podcast.

00:02:27:

Perfect.

00:02:28:

I'm on board this.

00:02:29:

Do its we've never met.

00:02:31:

Let's share everything that we dio to the recording it for Everybody cools.

00:02:36:

Yes, let's do that since I did you love it.

00:02:39:

This was speaking of what you do.

00:02:40:

Let's let's jump into that.

00:02:42:

What is what is a day in the life of a Dev Avocado for mongo DB.

00:02:47:

It's, like, different for everyone.

00:02:48:

And I'm sure you've talked to 10 of Dev advocates to for, um I'm only off totally.

00:02:55:

Yeah, and like I've done, I've been technically for, like, large e commerce sites.

00:03:00:

Um, and this is my first time doing developer advocacy, And I've been doing for about a year now full time.

00:03:07:

Um, and it's different.

00:03:09:

Okay, so I want to paint a picture about, like, what I do to kind of accept the pits.

00:03:13:

Don't like the tone a little bit.

00:03:15:

And so I've been working about dive, like all of us working remote since Covad lockdowns happening.

00:03:20:

But I've been doing it since the beginning.

00:03:22:

It's like a remote, first kind of tick position.

00:03:25:

Um, yeah.

00:03:26:

So I'm like, home alone a lot, if you like, wildly oscillates between, like being alone and not talking anyone for weeks on end.

00:03:33:

And then like going to a conference or speaking virtually and like, having lots and lots of conversations all at once.

00:03:39:

Um, and I feel like recently too.

00:03:42:

People don't know you're listening to this to like, I've been posting a lot of tic tac videos recently and like that's been weirdly shaping my what?

00:03:54:

I've been doing the data date of my life a lot, which is so weird.

00:03:57:

I felt so stupid saying that I feel so stupid because it's I mean, I don't really do that dance that make, like, NJ.

00:04:03:

You've seen a couple of videos.

00:04:04:

They're just, like, fine trying look like fun programming jokes, Um, but stuff I feel horribly anxious about, um and I tried to, like, put that on the internet.

00:04:14:

Um, but I know what the date My day today?

00:04:17:

I don't know.

00:04:18:

I'm on social media lot.

00:04:19:

I do programming as much that possibly can.

00:04:21:

I do twits trimming every Friday and a mongo db twitch channel.

00:04:25:

Um, and I speak it like maybe 12 maybe three conferences a week.

00:04:30:

She's and then that you're trying to get podcast.

00:04:33:

It's been weird.

00:04:33:

And like Kobe has been a game changer to like, Ah, I feel like I don't know, It's so it's so I'm agency like like my day to day goes here.

00:04:43:

But obviously I was traveling to conferences a lot, and if you like I've been like everything is moving online and trying to understand what online space looks like for us.

00:04:53:

And I think that that's like I am.

00:04:56:

I don't think we're gonna be like, going back to like what we had before and trying to figure out with how everyone's gonna learning and growing sharing without in person conferences.

00:05:07:

I don't know when we get those really long and winded.

00:05:10:

And I don't think I answered your question all but denies.

00:05:13:

Parade is so fun.

00:05:14:

Thank you for asking s So I will say the one thing you talked about, Like just kind of learning.

00:05:23:

I I will tell you the first, and this doesn't affect you in any way.

00:05:28:

I guess this is me.

00:05:29:

I'm not bragging or something.

00:05:30:

Um, I love Yeah, the first database architecture that I ever used in like actual, like live setting was mongo.

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So my manga devi was I like I am on record saying I hate, like, weird like sequel.

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Tire likes design like I want something that I can read.

00:05:55:

I want something that I can like, just dive into and be like, That's what I need.

00:05:59:

Give me that and not have to think about insane commands on and as totally uses python like I became well versed in pie mongo and and just just jumping into that world early.

00:06:15:

And I could tell that, like, even from the jump like Mongo, DB has always had this community first kind of approach where it's like, Hey, look, here's this thing that you can get for free with no support that also has this gigantic like documentation library that has, like, ah, lot of communities stuff a lot of community involvement or you can pay us and get access to all of the same things.

00:06:42:

But then, if you need to call us, you can kind also just do that Totally.

00:06:46:

Yeah, exactly what we love here and that you like, got it among you to be first.

00:06:49:

And I think that's a super common experience to is like, Yeah, I think just like the database model makes more sense with, like, programmer, like we're saving things as objects anyways, like saving it as an object makes so much sense.

00:07:01:

Yeah, especially when you're first getting the programming and think that that, like, yeah, I understand normalisation of treat it like legacy databases of soberly so hard I'm gonna tow I know the guy who does the development for the pie Mongo driver.

00:07:15:

I'm a to tell him how much you you flip work with stuff, too, if he's awesome.

00:07:18:

Um, but, uh, yeah, we'll have that.

00:07:22:

Like, I feel like we're I don't know.

00:07:27:

I think we're trying to, like listen to developers more and more and more.

00:07:31:

And I think you're right.

00:07:31:

We've had this, like reputation for being like, very developer friendly.

00:07:36:

I think that we're we're trying to be, like, better than anyone else habits, you know?

00:07:39:

I mean, I think I don't know.

00:07:42:

It's it's hard.

00:07:43:

There's like dopers were like a fickle species were you know, we, uh, love new shiny things were, you know, were there's always new stuff coming out.

00:07:52:

You know, you can't you can't sell something that developed, doesn't want it doesn't work, right.

00:07:57:

Like it has to be like organically something helpers are one actually used, um, which is so important?

00:08:03:

Well, it was awesome.

00:08:05:

I think the thing with that, though, is your developers are starting to change, I think, as fewer and fewer developers air coming out of like M i t.

00:08:17:

And Caltech with a knocking a master's in computer science.

00:08:21:

And now it's more like, Hey, I went to this coding boot camp because I was tired of being a bartender on, and that attitude shift has, in my opinion, been great because yes, I'm coming from a position of like college dropout turned military.

00:08:37:

Better in turned like I program to solve the problems in my day to day job, and now it's like I'm ready to make that transition after, like, a decade of doing that to being like, Okay, I can call myself professional developer type.

00:08:55:

What does that look like for me?

00:08:56:

What is the intersection between managing communities and talking and getting people on shows to ask these questions and then also writing code from time to time, which I try to do every day?

00:09:07:

But it's hard.

00:09:09:

Even developers don't write code every day.

00:09:11:

It's hard.

00:09:11:

Yeah, it's hard to do every day, so yeah, and I think one of the things that you've done really well is you are meeting the group of people where they are like you are, and I think a lot of developer advocates now arm or more like not talking in a boardroom.

00:09:31:

But talking at, like from a bar stool or talking from, you know, outside it, like in the hallway track of ah, conference.

00:09:40:

And now, like talking on Twitter and take talking.

00:09:44:

And now it's which is even becoming a bigger thing where these conversations aren't being had in the quote unquote professional areas.

00:09:51:

You're making these completely like personal like curated, feed algorithmic like hallways, where you can talk tech with the people who are seeking toe.

00:10:05:

Learn from the folks like what you're doing, I was told.

00:10:08:

I told agree, and I think you nailed it, too.

00:10:10:

Like I think.

00:10:11:

Traditionally, I think that's a couple of years ago.

00:10:13:

Like people go in and go like, Yeah, I suit up and go talk to a CTO of a company and try to explain to him for the sales deck of why it works and I love it.

00:10:23:

I feel the same way to click.

00:10:25:

So I was.

00:10:26:

I was the technical instructor at a dual boot camp in Honolulu, Hawaii.

00:10:29:

So, like, I have, like a really stop spot.

00:10:31:

My heart flick developers.

00:10:32:

I think that was awesome.

00:10:33:

No, like seeing people like jump in.

00:10:35:

Um, I think a lot of people like it's sexy and cool to, like, be talking about the, um, like, the latest greatest things are advanced use cases for mongo db.

00:10:45:

But, like, the thing is, 99% of users don't really care about that.

00:10:49:

Like, most people just want to know, Like, how do I put data in and get it out?

00:10:53:

You know what I mean?

00:10:53:

Or like, how do we get started?

00:10:55:

Or like, how do I want to feel like I'm listening to?

00:10:58:

You know what I mean?

00:10:58:

Or like, I'm gonna be welcome here.

00:11:01:

I think I don't know it.

00:11:04:

I feel like a lot of dope, Ravic, see is like, still kind of starting with that.

00:11:08:

I get the appeal of it, too, because I I want to be known as, like, the smartest guy about this thing.

00:11:14:

But no one really cares about that stuff.

00:11:16:

No one cares who cares or find, like, try to tell you about this advance use case like, but like, no one's there yet.

00:11:21:

Like that.

00:11:22:

Just, like doesn't go anywhere.

00:11:24:

I don't know.

00:11:24:

I think it in, like for this stuff I'm doing to.

00:11:27:

I won't be making things that like I wish I had and I was learning program, you know?

00:11:32:

I mean, like, I don't want to read a book or like, I don't know, I can't read I just getting but e just like Is It is a advanced techno mumbo jumbo of boring And I felt like I was like, I felt stupid reading It's and I felt defeated.

00:11:49:

Um, I just wanted to feel like, listen to and heard and, like, encouraged, like, keep learning even though it's hard, you know?

00:11:55:

I mean, absolutely.

00:11:57:

And I think that that's like some of the videos that you've put out on tech talk really do show that, like the junior developer releasing his first commit.

00:12:06:

It's kind of like OK, I could get fired right now.

00:12:11:

I mean, that's really that's what got me into the idea of productivity as a person who works in the tech space was lying coming from a military background when you're like I can't get fired, Yeah, like it's not here for me to die than to get fired in the military.

00:12:29:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:31:

Then going to a position where it's like, OK, they've given me zero instruction.

00:12:36:

All I have are like my job.

00:12:39:

Describe right.

00:12:40:

If you mess with the lending rules, you're gone.

00:12:42:

Exactly.

00:12:43:

Yeah.

00:12:43:

And, yeah, just coming into like this weird.

00:12:46:

Like, how do I How do I jump over that hill and even even wanting to get into a new career like now again, When you have someone that's like a bartender, it's like, Okay, the worst thing that I can do is give someone a really bad drink.

00:12:58:

Yeah, Or maybe just let somebody jump across the barn, My bartender for an hour.

00:13:02:

But this is surely bad, too.

00:13:04:

But that's true.

00:13:05:

That's true.

00:13:05:

It's frowned upon, but yeah, but it's a vandal world.

00:13:09:

It's fine.

00:13:09:

Exactly.

00:13:10:

And now it's like if you're working at, like, one of these, like Fang companies or our company that is dealing with databases.

00:13:18:

You know, people store important stuff in databases when data leaks, gets exudes data.

00:13:25:

Yeah, employees and I sit there and think about like, ah, a few weeks back from recording this, there was like the big T mobile like incident, and it where someone was saying like, Oh, yeah, someone like released on, uh, committed something and it wasn't ready, and it like crash the system and I was like, Ooh, that's a bad day.

00:13:44:

And at the end of the day, it just turned out that, like a couple of low bouncers like failed is a coldly exactly or someone like published a semi colon wrong and I config file or something.

00:13:56:

It exactly crash the load balancer.

00:13:59:

Yeah, and like I've crashed a couple sites, I haven't crashed anything huge.

00:14:03:

Um, and it's OK, Yeah, it's okay, but it doesn't feel OK And even, like even thinking back in the times of crashed production sites, I like, I like cringe, and I hate myself and, like, brings definitely like it's like it's hard to think about.

00:14:17:

It still hurts, you know?

00:14:18:

Um, I don't know.

00:14:20:

And I feel like we just like, is an industry like greater forgiveness for a junior.

00:14:23:

Developers like ourselves from that stuff.

00:14:25:

Um, of course, like crashing productions operate, you want to do it.

00:14:30:

If you do it twice.

00:14:31:

Probably bad.

00:14:33:

That's bad.

00:14:33:

You probably don't do the same thing twice your master privileges about what had been revoked exactly.

00:14:38:

Yeah, you probably like It's like maybe should rethink things at that point, but it like once or like messing things up eso like specifically to with that, Like so I just published a tick talk About, Like how, Like I remember, I was just like, thinking back about, like my first commit like, professional commit with a team of senior engineers reviewing my code like I'm afraid it was.

00:14:59:

And then even like as a boot camp instructor, like seeing my students met the PR's for review and, like just you can just feel the anxiety.

00:15:07:

You know, there's like a lot of anxiety about it.

00:15:09:

I A I just really In general, I think we just need more empathy in our industry, not me.

00:15:15:

And I just I think we just have, like, a lot of its words.

00:15:20:

It's scary Field, and I think you're feeling of Fear.

00:15:23:

Two.

00:15:24:

It's like everyone every feels that in that sex that's sex that's actually do that ourselves.

00:15:30:

I don't know.

00:15:31:

I feel like for the longest time developers, and I would even say like developer advocates like it was almost like that stereotypical cinematic prison mentality of like All right, I just jumped in.

00:15:45:

I gotta find the biggest and baddest person in the room and like clock.

00:15:48:

Yeah, just take down.

00:15:51:

I feel like that was when I first got in detect That was like me.

00:15:56:

Like Okay, what's the biggest problem that our company has right now?

00:15:59:

And I'm gonna solve it like, Yeah, I had minutes just to show that I'm the badass in the area.

00:16:04:

And at the end of the day, it was like you just brought the entire network down like, yeah, why minded types that leads to try Exactly.

00:16:15:

I think that there's something about advocating for all levels of development, which is which is something that, you know, we've been preaching the good word of Mongo, You know, this last 20 minutes.

00:16:28:

But yeah, more than anything, I think the attitude of I would say, like the postmodern developer advocate, is one that is like, Hey, look, at the end of the day, it's the people that air righting the code that are going to be making the biggest of these decisions because if they're using a tool that they don't like, it's it's gonna release and bad quality.

00:16:56:

So now, instead of talking to the CTO about how something can, you know, be good for their our ally and reduce.

00:17:05:

It'll increase you to reduce your workload by like, 80%.

00:17:09:

It's like you just say you were gonna fire, like, eight out of 10 people in the room that that's not what people want to hear.

00:17:16:

Uh, and instead, you're just like, Hey, look, I get it.

00:17:20:

Being a developer is hard.

00:17:23:

The tool is designed to make it a little bit easier.

00:17:25:

And I'm gonna show you how Yeah, and totally no.

00:17:29:

And I'm not gonna waste your time because I'm doing it on Twitch or I'm doing it on like a YouTube video.

00:17:34:

That way, if you can tell from like five minutes in that, it's not for you.

00:17:38:

You know you got to do is close the tab.

00:17:40:

You don't have to, like, sit there awkwardly in the boardroom like, uh oh.

00:17:45:

Told Wade, sit there like a conference and be like All right, well, this guy has a keynote.

00:17:49:

So let me check my email real quick.

00:17:53:

Yeah, No, absolutely.

00:17:55:

Usually right in, like there's a 1,000,000 different databases up there.

00:17:58:

There's a 1,000,000 different Web apple.

00:18:00:

There is a little different frame frameworks you could possibly use.

00:18:02:

It's like and I do the whole time to like, I'll spend like something a pop up on hacker news or read it.

00:18:08:

I'll spend, like, 10 seconds looking at it and then all the side, whether I want it like if it's worth my time.

00:18:13:

But it was like, J your nights Time is super valuable.

00:18:17:

I might go and, like I'm not going to spend my time frantically learning every new shining he's object that comes out like that's That's not sustainable or like even that's a terrible idea for just like our time, you know?

00:18:29:

I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:18:31:

E Think you and I would be like, picky about what were learning and like, making sure it's worth of time both, like for a career should be even just like for fun, like I'm not gonna learn something that's, like, sucks to use and boring and buggy, and it's doesn't do anything for me, you know?

00:18:46:

I mean, I'm not spending things like actually helpful I want to use.

00:18:51:

And even with that, like you can see, like the stuff, the stuff that we have to use this stuff that we're like Ari Well, I mean, our system runs on a W s so right.

00:19:02:

Like I have to know how boto three works as a python developer working in AWS.

00:19:08:

I have to at least have an idea of that structure.

00:19:13:

No, I I mean, one of the things that I do for like, my side business that is productivity in tech is I do transcriptions for podcasters, for content creators and like all that stuff and well, I think that that's awesome.

00:19:28:

They're people that are just like, yeah, I don't want to give Amazon my money and it's like, Okay, I totally respect that.

00:19:35:

However, like now I have to go learn she see us and then I or I have to go learn like IBM Watson, which nobody wants to do, O r.

00:19:45:

I have to, like, sign up and give half of the money that I'm making toe like some third party that down the road is literally just using aws.

00:19:54:

So in my mind, I'm like now I have to learn three different schemers Teoh do the exact same thing because one person doesn't want to use the architecture and there perfectly validated for that.

00:20:07:

However, the only thing that I can do on my end is say, Well, where is the common denominator?

00:20:13:

You know, when it comes to like bringing it back to, like, database stuff?

00:20:17:

One of the things I love in Python a sequel Alchemy because it's it's designed to be the what are you using using Post Press.

00:20:24:

Okay, we got that Using that's equal.

00:20:26:

Okay, we got that.

00:20:27:

Yeah, unlike in the process of like, trying to build that for transcription tools because I'm tired of having to remember what scheme I'm in and like, Okay, how do I How do I fetch alternatives for GCS versus AWS?

00:20:42:

And I know for a lot of people, they're like, I don't know what that means, but it's one of those things were like, You get so frustrated and just fighting with the tools that you're just like if someone came to me and was like, Hey, we understand that your tool suck.

00:20:56:

Here's a way that you can use this and not wanna pull.

00:21:00:

You know, your luxurious locks out in a single day.

00:21:04:

Yeah, I'm just, like, sign me up.

00:21:06:

Yes, absolutely.

00:21:08:

I will do that.

00:21:09:

You nailed it like I think, a part that a lot of people don't look at, especially with like cloud architecture like we're looking at like like is like developer time and, like our time tends to be the most expensive part of any project these days, like infrastructure in like the tools or uses fractional costs to our time.

00:21:29:

And I think it's developers like we don't I don't know.

00:21:31:

I feel like a lot of times and companies like our time is not respected by managers and the like.

00:21:37:

Product leads to Flake, but I think it's developers.

00:21:40:

We consider that I think we need to be advocating for a sells for, to use tools that, like makes sense and I respect our time.

00:21:46:

You know, we're like we could get done quickly.

00:21:48:

We're just easy to use and agree.

00:21:50:

Like if you have to use something if you have to learn three new schemes and bringing products to get a thing done like okay, that's okay.

00:21:56:

But like, I don't love that you're looking at like weighing the pros and cons of using things that you're already already know to use or like, easier to you know, I mean, I think that's important.

00:22:07:

Well, I think I deserve it I think it's good that there's options now, which is is the best part.

00:22:14:

But I think in that advocates should be listening to the user.

00:22:24:

I think I know.

00:22:25:

I don't know.

00:22:26:

Why did you send this?

00:22:28:

Maybe it was.

00:22:28:

I'm jumping on Twitter now because I'm a horrible podcaster.

00:22:31:

Um, no, that's great.

00:22:33:

Joe Rogan, that sequoia dozens that I'm sooner, Right?

00:22:39:

Exactly.

00:22:40:

Exactly.

00:22:41:

I think there was, Ah, blawg posts that you you responded to on Twitter earlier today.

00:22:47:

That was our early in last couple days, I guess talking about the idea of, like, look, customers don't care about that cool trick that you did to make your code work because I care about, like, the efficiency of your They They kind of care about the efficiency and more about the performance.

00:23:03:

You care about how clean your code is elegant.

00:23:06:

Your solution Now, abstract er code was all the air out is doesn't solve my problem in the end of the day.

00:23:13:

Like that's what's importantly.

00:23:14:

Okay.

00:23:14:

Hey, can I can I use this?

00:23:16:

Doesn't solve my problem.

00:23:18:

Okay, Cool.

00:23:18:

Sign me up and I feel like more and more advocates are starting to understand that more than anything, they're starting to actually try to collect those problem points.

00:23:30:

They're like, OK, this was working for you up until this point.

00:23:36:

Yeah, What did it like?

00:23:38:

How did it fail?

00:23:40:

How can you improve it?

00:23:41:

What can we do to make this better?

00:23:43:

And how can I keep in touch with you so that when we do fix it, you'll be the first person to know, Like I feel like developer advocates are now.

00:23:52:

And this is someone who is not yet a developer advocate.

00:23:55:

This is something that's going to get into that space.

00:23:57:

Yeah, I feel like it is our role to almost be like developer slash sales person slash marketer slash customer service, like the that person that can figure out where I'm at on that path and then send them in the right direction.

00:24:13:

I think that's one of the things that you're able to do so well being able to be on social media, you are being ableto advocate for people who are, uh, just really genuinely smart.

00:24:26:

People now are trying to break into the industry, but then also being able to jump in and say this is a feeling this feeling is very legitimate.

00:24:36:

Yeah, exactly.

00:24:37:

We know Teoh not listen to us.

00:24:40:

We need to look Zack Pickett seriously, like Mongo.

00:24:43:

To be is like are like we're a little bit different.

00:24:46:

A lot of companies like our customers are developers.

00:24:50:

I think I've worked for companies where my customers are people purchasing a thing from our sites or using you know, to me it's like more traditional customers.

00:24:58:

But you have to listen And I think a lot since I see that I see this really big thing cos they're just like they don't listen.

00:25:05:

They're like, This is the way we're doing it.

00:25:07:

Get on board or or relieve about Yeah, you know, I mean, it feels more just like you were going Screw you.

00:25:15:

Come along if you want.

00:25:16:

You know, I mean, really, though even open source list stuff.

00:25:18:

But like they don't they're not reading your issues or submitting.

00:25:22:

They're not like reading suggestions.

00:25:23:

It's just like we're doing things we want to do.

00:25:25:

Deal.

00:25:27:

And that's a great idea, especially if you're like making a thing for a goal for community like, how can you do that in that?

00:25:32:

Listen to offers.

00:25:34:

And the other thing I want to touch on to is you talked about like how we should be listening and so in.

00:25:39:

Like, I used to see the old name developer evangelism, and I couldn't I don't like that name.

00:25:44:

Say, I imagine that like a preacher in front of ah, congregation preaching a products, it's trying to sell it without listening.

00:25:51:

You're just presenting definitely as a developer advocate.

00:25:55:

I'm advocating for you.

00:25:56:

The developer community internally as well is like So I'm like the middle person like I'm the face of the company to the customers, but also the voice of the customers, developers to like the internal product teams, tickets, Two Way street, you know, I mean evangelizing both ways.

00:26:12:

I think that's an important distinction from A I just I know I want to see you in, like this giant like Southern Baptist Church.

00:26:20:

Get the white robe on back from pop icon and I've come down from the mountain tops of of Pittsburgh.

00:26:31:

It seemed like a conference talks.

00:26:32:

I'm just like if I can't get any feedback from the the group on talking, it's like such an uncomfortable experience to me.

00:26:39:

I feel just and so we're just talking at people.

00:26:42:

I mean, there's a lot of these podcasts like it's like talk with someone.

00:26:45:

It's, I don't know.

00:26:48:

It's I feel like you don't feel like I'm just like, yeah, bring on a stage or something.

00:26:51:

I just feel like I don't know I don't know Any time I'm bored of someone, I think I'm just talking at a wall like this.

00:26:56:

Working that's actually the hard part about Like doing these online conferences is like usually like me on a Web cam, talking like 1000 people and maybe a couple people are chatting just like Is this landing?

00:27:11:

Is this work?

00:27:12:

It's hard, It's It's hard to tell.

00:27:14:

Have you been doing it for the talks where they have like okay, you have to record your talk first?

00:27:20:

Yes, and then sit there as your talk is being played in the chat so that you can jump back live and answer questions.

00:27:28:

Jay, it's the worst.

00:27:30:

I you see what I do, and you're like they want you to be in the chat like talking live with the group, which is awesome.

00:27:36:

I love that, but like hearing yourself talk while doing it.

00:27:38:

It's like the worst experience.

00:27:41:

I have been just muting myself because I can't I can't listen to myself at all.

00:27:44:

I can't I can't do it.

00:27:46:

It's so hard.

00:27:48:

Okay, cool.

00:27:50:

No one's thrown me out of the bus in the chat.

00:27:53:

That's good.

00:27:54:

And J I hit more nervous for a prerecorded talk than I do for just a lifetime.

00:27:59:

Yeah, I don't even know if I can explain why it's so hard for me.

00:28:02:

I mean, having having tried to do, like, some course type stuff, I can understand it because when you're giving a talk and this is coming from someone who's, ah, license but non practicing minister like, Oh, I have actually had to go in like preach.

00:28:19:

And I tend tohave this thing where I like black out for a certain amount of time.

00:28:24:

Yeah, And then I think at one point there was there was literally a sermon that I gave once where I told people like they didn't chill out.

00:28:31:

I was gonna just come out there and kick their ass.

00:28:33:

And it was like, This is not for me to aggressive.

00:28:39:

Yeah, that is like, I don't remember saying it, but it was just like it tonight.

00:28:43:

Traveling just takes over right?

00:28:46:

When I give a developer talk, it's like it's the same thing.

00:28:49:

It's like I can literally get up there.

00:28:52:

I've practiced.

00:28:53:

I've researched.

00:28:54:

I'm gonna black out spew whatever I have to say.

00:28:56:

Probably say something wrong.

00:28:58:

Try not to offend anyone and then jump down and be like, OK, cool.

00:29:03:

Now let me sit and talk with the people that just heard whatever it is, I said.

00:29:07:

And then when they tell me what they heard me say, I go, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:29:12:

That's exactly that's exactly what I was trying to get across.

00:29:17:

I love that.

00:29:18:

If you're recording a video, you're like it's just you and your thoughts and usually have your notes and you have it scripted.

00:29:23:

It's like right like I have Ah, no book here and I'm like, Well, yeah, that is instituted.

00:29:29:

It's like you can't It's so hard toe have that same type of I'm going to get up and do the thing that I get paid to do that.

00:29:38:

I'm confident about doing the energy that I know Aiken Dio when you shift it and put it all behind.

00:29:45:

Like, OK, we're gonna take this in 32 takes stitch together the best possible talk and then give you something to look at the end.

00:29:54:

I totally agree.

00:29:55:

It's it's hard like I am so mongo db We usually do like in person conference, and we have a lot of internal people who don't usually do talks they present.

00:30:04:

But we did it all online this year, obviously, because of cope it, Um, yeah, but it's hard.

00:30:09:

It was like it's a different feeling doing it unlined Teoh.

00:30:13:

I think the hardest part I've seen, too, is like you kind of don't you don't have that adrenaline.

00:30:18:

And I think if you're not ready for it, you kind of lose the energy.

00:30:21:

And I feel like, yeah, you know, it's like you're like right now.

00:30:25:

I'm just in my living room just talking at a wall with a webcam on it and like it could be easy go.

00:30:31:

It's like I don't have a crowd of people like hyping me up and cheering and clapping.

00:30:35:

It's like hard to keep the energy up.

00:30:37:

Uh, it's I don't be really intentional about it, Jay.

00:30:41:

I want to mention to in your talk with, like fighting someone during when you're talks.

00:30:44:

Like for me, what happens when I'm presenting?

00:30:47:

I lose all awareness of my body.

00:30:50:

It's, uh, it's just so weird.

00:30:54:

I don't It's like I'm focusing too much on like what I'm saying and how to say it.

00:30:58:

Then, like my body's like flailing around, waving the hands around, knocking things over and like hitting the microphone, its eyes were like a speech coach That's been like helping, like, retuned my my presence up and like, they're like, You gotta work on you gotta work on your body.

00:31:16:

It's like Is you looking like you look like a crazy person up there?

00:31:20:

Can't I'm so bad at it.

00:31:23:

The adrenal and I can't help.

00:31:24:

But I don't know, one of the talks I gave in Ah, North Bay, and this is probably the last thing before we jump into the after show one of the talks about North Bay.

00:31:33:

We, um it was the first talk I'd ever give, like first developer talk I had given.

00:31:38:

So and it was about podcasting.

00:31:41:

Yeah, developer conference.

00:31:43:

We're gonna talk about podcasts, and the interesting thing was I was so nervous and there was like, Oh, you'll do finally feel like you can do this.

00:31:53:

You got it.

00:31:53:

You get on podcast every week and talking stuff.

00:31:56:

It's just like a podcast.

00:31:57:

So I literally treated it like a podcast, like, you remember the whole, like, run through that I ran like that.

00:32:03:

I we did before we started is a What's your name to pronounce that enough.

00:32:06:

I literally went through that script, like, for myself.

00:32:12:

So I have My name is J.

00:32:13:

Miller.

00:32:13:

My pronouns air, he and him.

00:32:14:

I'm, uh we're gonna talk about this and then just jump into it, like, all right, I'm gonna get myself some time, drink some water, don't at the end.

00:32:23:

Like I was actually using the podium that they had out there to make sure that I wasn't like bouncing all over the place.

00:32:30:

It was just like I had her had a remote control.

00:32:33:

I was like, Hey, if a part of my body can't touch the podium, I've gone too far.

00:32:37:

I needed exactly baguette.

00:32:40:

You like tethers that podia I need, like, chain myself to it.

00:32:43:

Otherwise I am just Yeah, that's smart.

00:32:46:

That's more.

00:32:46:

You gotta like that.

00:32:47:

But some people like that, though, because I mean even afterwards, like I talked, Teoh, a developer advocate for Microsoft, was talking right after me, and he was like, Great job.

00:32:57:

You should have given that talk from the middle of the stage and not from the podium like that.

00:33:02:

He's like, That's the Onley.

00:33:04:

Like a point that I had is that you felt like you were tethered to that podium like I was.

00:33:08:

He was like, But no, you weren't.

00:33:09:

You had a lapel mic on you had a remote control like you literally caught your from anywhere.

00:33:14:

Why did you just keep yourself isolated?

00:33:16:

That one And I was like, Well, doing it.

00:33:18:

I guess it's not like Twitter.

00:33:19:

Like a podcast.

00:33:20:

I can totally the ability to move around.

00:33:23:

Yeah, I totally get that, too.

00:33:25:

Then that been smart.

00:33:26:

I know you think about like what you want to focus on or like trying hides its.

00:33:30:

I totally get that.

00:33:32:

I'm so bad that it's and I totally brew that my perception advocate a body body presence and like where you are so important, it's hard.

00:33:41:

It's hard to deal and like like twitching like podcasting.

00:33:44:

You're trying, like, manage a key point in time.

00:33:46:

I twitch trying like you track the track moderate that I'm trying like live code and salt record faltering problems live like deep like it.

00:33:54:

It's just like a lot.

00:33:56:

The things to balance mentally and our puny human brains can like.

00:34:00:

Our is terrible at multitasking.

00:34:02:

That's why you play video games on switch.

00:34:05:

Better.

00:34:06:

Better Doing actual work is hard, like it's all hard.

00:34:11:

J.

00:34:12:

It's so hard to do real work on their, uh, I've been doing life.

00:34:15:

Couldn't probably get your Now on there.

00:34:16:

It's It's it can hurt.

00:34:18:

It is nice.

00:34:19:

So if I get like a bug and some of the chat like notes of a software bug, which is nice, but that is it's pretty rare sleeping like, Wow, this guy doesn't just staring at me exactly.

00:34:32:

I'm sweating and floundering, trying to solve these problems live but to that point to idle like that's what like what's which, though it's like for me, I think it's important for me to be like exposed my anxiety and vulnerabilities for everyone's like, normalized that experience e think intact and especially developer Matt Evangelist.

00:34:50:

See you like we're delivering this fully formed perfect product for like, look at this cool prototype that shows this thing and like, you don't see the blood, sweat and tears that went into making that.

00:35:00:

I want you to see me crying while I'm making the thing.

00:35:05:

That's what I want.

00:35:07:

I don't know.

00:35:07:

I wish I had that.

00:35:09:

Well, that's going to wrap up the first half of this show.

00:35:12:

Everybody listening.

00:35:13:

Thank you so much for hanging out with Joe and I.

00:35:17:

Ah, we're about to jump into an after show and you might be wondering Hey, wait, what after show?

00:35:21:

What's that?

00:35:22:

You get access to a bonus speed where my guests actually interview me, asking whatever questions they want.

00:35:28:

So if you want access to that, here's what you got to do.

00:35:33:

Ah, there's three things you can either.

00:35:34:

A sign up for the newsletter, there will be a link in the show.

00:35:36:

Notes be You can also email me directly info at productivity, antec dot com or three.

00:35:47:

What did I say?

00:35:47:

A.

00:35:47:

B and three.

00:35:48:

I don't remember.

00:35:50:

Got very Send me a d m on Twitter.

00:35:52:

That's KJ y Miller.

00:35:54:

If you do that, I will send you an invite just for you to the pit community, where you cannot get access to slack channel, the bonus feed and, most importantly, the after shows.

00:36:11:

But I have to think.

00:36:12:

Jo Jo, thank you so much for coming on this show.

00:36:14:

It has been absolutely fun.

00:36:15:

Let everybody know how they can get in touch with you.

00:36:19:

Oh, my gosh.

00:36:19:

Straight.

00:36:19:

Thank you.

00:36:20:

Thank you for having me.

00:36:21:

I've had a blast here too.

00:36:22:

If anyone, like wants to hear more from my stupid voice, you should totally follow me on Twitter.

00:36:28:

It's Joe Carlson.

00:36:29:

One is actually the best way to get a hold of me.

00:36:31:

I'm always open the connecting people in my den.

00:36:34:

Um, my websites.

00:36:35:

Joe Carlson.

00:36:36:

I'm streaming every Friday on the mongo db Twitch Channel Attn.

00:36:40:

Noon Eastern time.

00:36:41:

So that's interesting for you should really check that would twitch TV slash mongo db.

00:36:45:

And lastly to ah, tic tac.

00:36:47:

I'm sure there's like another is like 10 of us stop for engineers on six.

00:36:51:

But if you're one of them or want to be one of those you told check my my thing It's my first last name.

00:36:56:

Joe Carlson Jail.

00:36:57:

We KR double s o n.

00:37:00:

That's it for me.

00:37:01:

Oh, I don't think I want to push our community it monkey to be to, uh, if you go to, uh, devil that monkey to be dot com If branded depth hub includes our community forum, get questions.

00:37:13:

Unlike Munger Munger to be stopped should pull it.

00:37:15:

Check that out.

00:37:16:

Okay, that's it for me.

00:37:18:

Awesome.

00:37:18:

Well, you heard it.

00:37:19:

This how you get in touch with Joe if you want to reach out to me.

00:37:22:

I already told you that.

00:37:23:

Don't worry about it.

00:37:24:

I'm not gonna tell you again.

00:37:24:

Um, I have to give a big thing spurs and foremost to the family Dirham Awali for the use of his music hustler in spite of myself for the intro Now true.

00:37:34:

Thank you so much.

00:37:35:

And of course I have to think everybody that checks out productivity in tech.

00:37:40:

We are a podcast.

00:37:41:

But we're also a business that helps tech creators create tech content.

00:37:47:

So if you got a podcast, if you got a streamer YouTube channel and you need some help with that, hit me up tempo at productivity in tech dot All that A productivity intact dot com for myself.

00:38:00:

Endo, we've had a ton of fun here.

00:38:03:

I hope for at least a little bit of that we've been productive.

00:38:07:

But it is time for the after show.

00:38:12:

Joe, are you ready?

00:38:14:

I am ready.

00:38:15:

I'm ready.